JR: Yeah, right. I mean I think Ron Wyden's story is an example the problems in the...how dysfunctional oversight...traditional oversight -- has become. What Ron Wyden...he's a democratic senator from Oregon who was on the intelligence committee, the Senate Intelligence Committee, and so he knew...he was getting briefed under...at least during the Obama administration -- he was getting briefed on the growth in the NSA's surveillance...domestic surveillance, and yet he felt, because it was all classified, he could not talk about it. And so he would hold...he would give these talks on the senate floor, saying things like, 'oh if you people only knew what I'd know you'd be shocked,' and then he wouldn't say what it was about. And then it was only after Edward Snowden leaked documents, then Wyden said, 'oh yeah, that's what I was talking about.' And so what does that tell you about how screwed up and dysfunctional our oversight system is, if a sitting, elected United States senator is afraid to cross the intelligence community by talking publicly about what he thinks is wrong, and only can do it after someone leaks?
Rob: Go ahead, what does it say?
JR: It says that it's not...the system isn't working right; that congressional oversight is kind of a joke right now and that that's why we need an aggressive press and whistleblowers.
Rob: But then, let's talk about whistleblowers. You mentioned on Bill Maher the other night-- Obama has prosecuted and gone after more whistleblowers than -- and I've been saying for a couple of years -- he's been going after more whistleblowers than all the previous past presidents combined.
JR: Right. Yeah I mean I think his record speaks for itself. It's hard to understand how bad it's become, you know, how...it's had a real chilling effect I think both on whistleblowers and on journalists...and news organizations -- I think some of them probably think twice about what they're going to print, because they're afraid of getting into these fights with the government.
Rob: Have you encountered, in your work, whistleblowers who Obama has intimidated or have come up against dead ends because of Obama?
JR: Well I think it's....I'm sure that there are people who are afraid to talk right now because they know of the consequences. And I think there are some people, obviously, who still are willing to talk and that's...I think that's the only way we're going to get out of this is if we kind of keep pushing back in the media, keep investigating, and keep digging and finding out more about the abuses of the government.
Rob: Now, let's go back to your situation with this jail hanging over your head. How do you feel the Department of Justice has been, in terms of that?
JR: Well, I think they're just doing the bidding of the intelligence community and the White House, frankly. These leak investigations...they're kind of very arbitrary, which ones they pursue for criminal leak investigations; the CIA or the other intelligence agencies file a referral to the Justice Department about which ones they want to investigate or which ones they want the Justice Department to investigate. So the Justice Department basically takes marching orders from the intelligence community about which leaks they get upset about and so, you know that the official leaks from the White House are never going to be investigated thoroughly because the intelligence community and the White House don't want those to be thoroughly investigated. So what they're trying to do is to create limits on unofficial reporting -- they want everyone to...they want an authorized pathway for journalism to be created by punishing leaks that they don't like and allowing leaks that they do like. And the Justice Department goes along with that.
Rob: And I think that that's happened with the press secretary for the President too where they've attempted to kind of push their message and restrict what they're actually reporting or even limiting questioning too.
JR: Yeah, it's a very secretive administration. And, you know, I think it's strange for a democratic President to be as secretive as this one is. I'm not quite sure why it has happened, but I think part of it is that -- I think Obama was never as liberal as people thought he was, I think he was more conservative, particularly on national security.
Rob: Now you said that on Bill Maher too, you said that he was more conservative and I was going to ask you about that because...just how conservative do you think he is? I mean, how's his behavior, his policy compared -- you've been a reporter covering this turf under Bush and you've been around, you've seen how things were under the first Bush and under Reagan -- where does Obama fit in?
JR: Well I think a big part of his legacy is going to be that he...you know, Bush started a lot of these counterterrorism policies after 9/11 kind of on an ad hoc basis. I think Obama's legacy is going to be that he made the war on terror a permanent fixture in our society; he took the Bush/Cheney programs...counterterrorism programs that were started quickly and kind of haphazardly, and he's made them permanent. He's normalized the war on terror, and I think that is going to be one of the great ...either his great achievement or his great sin, however you want to look at it...because I think that's what...part of the whistleblower crackdown is part of his larger approach to national security, which is essentially an extension and continuation of the Bush policies.
Rob: How could somebody interpret this as a great achievement?
JR: Well, some people...clearly the White House doesn't like leaks -- they think I'm a traitor, they think all these whistleblowers are traitors; they hate Edward Snowden, they hate Manning. So it's just part of...it's just a different mindset.
Rob: They think you're a traitor?
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