There are so many topics I want to discuss. The hot one right now is the revelations
about the NSA that Edward Snowden brought to our attention, and I understand
that you're interested more in those revelations than in Snowden. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Bernie Sanders: Well, what I mean is that I think the
revelations are very disturbing to people in this country (and people, by the
way, all the way across the political
spectrum). In my view, you can't go
around saying, "I believe in Freedom, and I believe in liberty!" at the same time that you say, "Yeah! It's OK with me if the NSA codifies and puts
into a file every phone call that I make, or maybe they get into my
website." That's not what freedom, and
not what liberty, is about. People have
the right to make a bloody telephone call in this country without believing
that the government is filing that phone call (who they call, what time they
make that call) into some huge database somewhere.
So this is an issue that brings together people
from different political persuasions, and which says, "Yeah, of course. Terrorism is a serious issue. We want the government to be vigorous in
protecting the American People (I certainly do), but you can do that without
undermining the Constitution of the United States - specifically, the 4th
Amendment. And you can do that by saying
to the Intelligence Agencies, "If you have evidence that somebody may be
involved in terrorist activity, go get em'!"
But that is a very different approach than filing every phone call made
in the United States of America by 99.9% of the people who have nothing to do
with terrorism.
Rob Kall: Yeah. One of the big things that has allowed that
to happen in the FISA courts.
Bernie Sanders: Yes.
Rob Kall: What I've
learned is that the FISA court judges are appointed by the Chief Justice of the
United Sates, John Roberts; and the current one, my read of his biggest claim
to fame is that he ordered that a defendant demand that journalists disclose
their sources. To me, that's one of the
most sacrosanct of all the privacies that we have, and yet, this is the guy
that Roberts appointed to the FISA court; so it seems to me like the FISA court
is just going to rubber stamp whatever it's asked for -
Bernie Sanders: Well the issue of the rubber stamp is an
issue that a lot of people have talked about because the vast majority of the
requests that come in from intelligence agencies or law enforcement are
approved. I mean an overwhelming
majority: I think over 99% are approved by the FISA court. What in my view we have to do - and Legislation
that I have introduced would do - is amend section 215 of the USA Patriot ACT
(something that I've consistently voted against), and amend that section to
make it very clear that before a law enforcement or intelligence agencies can
start monitoring or investigating an individual, they have to make a case that
there's at least probable cause (or some other legal definition), which says,
"We have evidence to believe that this person is involved in terrorist
activity." That is the direction that we've
got to go. We've got to say, "You can't
just file every phone call in the United Sates because it makes it easier for
you to go after terrorists. That's not
good enough. Before you go after people,
you have to have reason to believe that they are involved in terrorist
activities."
Rob Kall: You know,
I've spoken to a number of young people in their late 20s recently. One is a lawyer. He went to law school, graduated fairly recently,
and he learned in law school that, about 30-40 years ago, a guy was in a phone
booth, and he shut the door, and then they tapped his phone. And he was basically released free because
they weren't allowed to invade his privacy that way, because he thought he was
speaking privately - even though it was a public place. Now that young lawyer said, "Today, there is
no such thing as that kind of privacy"; and young people across the board give
that answer, "I don't worry about privacy because I have nothing to hide." What's your answer to them?
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