AO: I talk to people about getting rid of hope and faith. And the strange effect of it is that it makes them more hopeful. I don't deprive them of that if that's what they need at that stage of their development. But personally, I'm not hopeful because I think hope is a kind of religion, and religions don't work. If you're hopeful you're going to suffer disappointments, whether it's politics or your personal life. You can care about things, you can want things to happen, you can work to make things happen without being hopeful. The way I guarantee not being too disappointed is to not put too much hope onto things.
Take this conversation between you and me, for example. Sure, I hope that we'll get something out of it. I want something to come out of it because I don't have a lot of energy these days and I'm careful about how I spend it. But if this interaction were a total waste, I wouldn't be upset very much. All that said, sometimes I wish I could be more hopeful. Sometimes I miss that.
RJ: Why is that?
AO: Because hope is comfortable. Because sometimes the way I think makes me very lonely, a kind of intellectual loneliness.
RJ: I use these terms differently. I make a distinction, as have others over the years, between optimism and hope. I'm not optimistic. If you ask me whether I think that U.S. economy is going to be fundamentally fairer in a year, I would say no. I'm not optimistic about that, because it's a question of rational assessment, and things seem to be going the other way in the short term. But I think there's a way to use the term "hope" that taps into our belief that -- in that endless haul you talk about -- humans have the capacity to be decent. I suppose it's about having reasonable expectations, which is what you are talking about. I'm just using different words, perhaps.
AO: Yea, it may be a difference in how we use the same terms. Sometimes people I deal with describe me as cynical. I tell them, "Where do you come up with that sh*t? Cynicism normally leads to inactivity. I'm 14 times more active than you are. You don't do sh*t, and you're labeling me cynical? If anybody's f*cking cynical, it's you." Those people have yielded to society's bullshit, and I think I've refused to yield. I'm not optimistic, and I'm not pessimistic. I'm none of those things. I'm me -- learning, exploring, and, fortunately, along the way I discovered a way of living that is very gratifying. Let's start with that. I live a gratifying life. I ask people if they want to live one. If they do, I'll tell them some ideas on how it can be done.
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The documentary "Abe Osheroff: One foot in the grave, the other still dancing," has just been released by the Media Education Foundation at a special price of $19.95. To order, go to http://www.abeosheroffmovie.com/.
The transcript of the complete interview with Osheroff is online at http://thirdcoastactivist.org/osheroff.html.
For more information on Osheroff, visit abeosheroff.org.
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