MAJ: Yes, yeah. Well, exercise in a cage really means, sometimes jogging around, doing pushups and what have you. For me, I’ve become an aficionado of handball. That’s like tennis without rackets. [Both laugh] And it’s very vigorous, it’s a good workout, and usually three days a week, I’m able to get a good game, and I got a very, very good set-up game early this morning.
MP: How has prison life changed in the last quarter of a century?
MAJ: In ways that were not conceivable certainly over 30 years ago. It was unthinkable then that several decades later, we would be looking at, let’s say, roughly three million people, you know, that there are more people in the prison system in the state where you’re at, in California, right now than in the whole country of France. It’s crazy, I mean, it’s un – you couldn’t even conceive of those kinds of numbers.
So in the last quarter of a century, what we’re really looking at is what many people have come to call the prison-industrial complex. There is a great deal of money, there’s a great deal of business, there’s a great deal of social power to be gained by the prison industry, in this sense, that many of the people who people the prisons, who populate the prisons, come from the urban core, the cities, and they’re transported to the rural districts, where population has traditionally been very sparse.
But what a lot of people don’t know is that everybody in prison is counted as part not just of the census, but of political districts, and if you want to talk about a cause of revolution being taxation without representation, or at least counting without representation – we’re counted in congressional districts, but obviously, you know, our voices, our concerns, our livelihood – none of our interests are counted when it comes to those people whose numbers help get them elected, so to speak.
MP: When you are inside, Mumia, and your major supporters are outside, there’s a real problem. How do you give direction to their support work?
MAJ: Usually in personal ways, and that is writing letters to people and just calling people up and talk to them, and usually also through supporters, who are able to communicate at a deeper, more intense level with younger supporters. We work people to people, you know, person to person, that’s the only real effective way I think to really arm someone to do this very arduous task of being an anti-prison activist.
MP: What about how you see your case in influencing that of other prisoners?
MAJ: That’s difficult to assess because it’s difficult to communicate farther than people on your block. It’s difficult also for people outside of prison to understand how truly isolated people are in some prison systems because of the differences in terms of construction with new prisons as opposed to old prisons.
In the old prisons, people were able to communicate and move around far better and easier than they are now. The new prisons have been built and constructed with an eye towards isolating people. So there might be a guy on the next block, but you may not see that person for six months, a year, I mean it’s really quite that isolated, so it’s difficult to communicate beyond what you can see on your own part of your own block.
MP: What are the older prisoners like in contrast to the younger prisoners? I mean, is there a difference that you have noted between those who have been inside for a long time, and the newer prisoners coming in? How do the younger prisoners compare with what you are like, for example?
MAJ: Well, when I came in, I was considerably older than many of the young people who are coming in now. I was 27, 28 years old, which sounds like a kid to me now, but when you consider that many of the guys coming in now are in their late teens or 20, 21, this means that there’s a profound difference between then and now.
Many of the older guys tend to be – ah, I have to say many, not all – but many tend to be more settled, more sober, and I think more patient, more conscious – that I think is a safe assessment. Many of the younger guys, especially in more recent years, it isn’t just that they’re younger, but that they come from a situation that is far more dire, far more provocative than those of the ones who came maybe 20 years from now.
By that I mean, the situation in many communities, especially, let us say in Philadelphia, is far more dangerous, far more economically unstable, far more socially disastrous frankly, than it has been 20 years ago. You can see that when you meet young people who really, I think, are in a constant state of rage, in a constant state of an inability, an unwillingness to listen to older people.
MP: Now, turning to your situation… I’d like you to tell us a little bit about this push for a new trial. Your legal team and your supporters are pressing for a new trial. Why a new trial, and why now?
MAJ: Why now? Well, of course, it didn’t begin now. We’ve been fighting for that for many years, in many places across the state, and many courtrooms. We’ve only been in the federal courts for the last, almost the last decade, but certainly since 2001, since the ruling came down. We’re now, of course, in the Court of Appeals.
MP: How has prison life changed in the last quarter of a century?
MAJ: In ways that were not conceivable certainly over 30 years ago. It was unthinkable then that several decades later, we would be looking at, let’s say, roughly three million people, you know, that there are more people in the prison system in the state where you’re at, in California, right now than in the whole country of France. It’s crazy, I mean, it’s un – you couldn’t even conceive of those kinds of numbers.
So in the last quarter of a century, what we’re really looking at is what many people have come to call the prison-industrial complex. There is a great deal of money, there’s a great deal of business, there’s a great deal of social power to be gained by the prison industry, in this sense, that many of the people who people the prisons, who populate the prisons, come from the urban core, the cities, and they’re transported to the rural districts, where population has traditionally been very sparse.
MP: When you are inside, Mumia, and your major supporters are outside, there’s a real problem. How do you give direction to their support work?
MAJ: Usually in personal ways, and that is writing letters to people and just calling people up and talk to them, and usually also through supporters, who are able to communicate at a deeper, more intense level with younger supporters. We work people to people, you know, person to person, that’s the only real effective way I think to really arm someone to do this very arduous task of being an anti-prison activist.
MP: What about how you see your case in influencing that of other prisoners?
MAJ: That’s difficult to assess because it’s difficult to communicate farther than people on your block. It’s difficult also for people outside of prison to understand how truly isolated people are in some prison systems because of the differences in terms of construction with new prisons as opposed to old prisons.
In the old prisons, people were able to communicate and move around far better and easier than they are now. The new prisons have been built and constructed with an eye towards isolating people. So there might be a guy on the next block, but you may not see that person for six months, a year, I mean it’s really quite that isolated, so it’s difficult to communicate beyond what you can see on your own part of your own block.
MP: What are the older prisoners like in contrast to the younger prisoners? I mean, is there a difference that you have noted between those who have been inside for a long time, and the newer prisoners coming in? How do the younger prisoners compare with what you are like, for example?
MAJ: Well, when I came in, I was considerably older than many of the young people who are coming in now. I was 27, 28 years old, which sounds like a kid to me now, but when you consider that many of the guys coming in now are in their late teens or 20, 21, this means that there’s a profound difference between then and now.
Many of the older guys tend to be – ah, I have to say many, not all – but many tend to be more settled, more sober, and I think more patient, more conscious – that I think is a safe assessment. Many of the younger guys, especially in more recent years, it isn’t just that they’re younger, but that they come from a situation that is far more dire, far more provocative than those of the ones who came maybe 20 years from now.
By that I mean, the situation in many communities, especially, let us say in Philadelphia, is far more dangerous, far more economically unstable, far more socially disastrous frankly, than it has been 20 years ago. You can see that when you meet young people who really, I think, are in a constant state of rage, in a constant state of an inability, an unwillingness to listen to older people.
MP: Now, turning to your situation… I’d like you to tell us a little bit about this push for a new trial. Your legal team and your supporters are pressing for a new trial. Why a new trial, and why now?
MAJ: Why now? Well, of course, it didn’t begin now. We’ve been fighting for that for many years, in many places across the state, and many courtrooms. We’ve only been in the federal courts for the last, almost the last decade, but certainly since 2001, since the ruling came down. We’re now, of course, in the Court of Appeals.
(Note: You can view every article as one long page if you sign up as an Advocate Member, or higher).
