Rob: Okay, now you mentioned the Zapatistas, can you talk a little bit about the Zapatistas and subcommand ante Marco? Because you do bring them up repeatedly in the book, I think it would be useful.
MS: Sure. I mean this -- so Chiapas, Mexico is -- it's a large section of Mexico, kind of rainforest historically excluded from different kinds of forms of development meaning roads, schools and things like that in Mexico and largely vast majority indigenous. And also a place where people have for so long indigenous people have been exploited up until, we're talking now; whether that was sexual violence against women and just horrendous abuses. And people had tried to organize for themselves and there had been a lot of repression so without going into too much detail, people had begun in the 80's and in 1994 when NAFTA was to be enacted, you know the free trade agreement with the U.S. and Mexico, which really was what the Zapatistas had a death sentence for them. They said enough that was 500 years of oppression and they were saying enough, they weren't going to tolerate it anymore and so indigenous people who self organized into an army, but they kind of talk about it being an army that is waging war so it's make peace. They weren't really waging war; most of them had wooden sticks, not rifles and things like that. But what they did was to kind of declare this war that was not actually a war that was more like a Declaration of Independence from Mexico.
So they said enough, we're not going to tolerate it anymore and they took over lands that historically had been theirs but in the past had been stolen from them and given to oligarchs, these people who owned large amounts of land and had physical power. And they took over all of this territory using the assembly form and they have and continue to create autonomous communities. So now we're talking about many dozens of tens of thousands of people if not more -- it's unclear how many people in many dozens of autonomous communities and municipalities, and they self govern through assemblies they coordinate with each other, as far as trading they grow their own crops and use them themselves, they have an independent education system and healthcare system that is better than any of the others in the region of Mexico. And then they defend themselves when necessary from incursions by para-militaries paid by the Mexican government or large landowners. So this is kind of what they do -- but what's so inspiring and why so many people in the movements do reference them is because of their kind of saying enough to these institutions of power and rather than trying to fight them on their terms, are creating their own terms. So don't go through the elections, don't create a guerrilla army, but instead just say okay we're creating our new society right now. And there are all kinds of slogans from the Zapatistas or phrases that we borrowed in the book and that people in movements borrow, things like walking we ask questions. So this spirit of organizing that's not about building a party with demands or having the answer, but together thinking in questions about how to resolve things or moving slowly.
Rob: Okay, good. I just -- I keep promising myself I'm going to read a whole book about the Zapatistas; such an exciting, powerful movement and the whole idea that they can exist autonomously within Mexico resisting the government, resisting the military and resisting the outside authorities. How do they do that?
MS: You know, it's the popularity that they have within the regions where they are but also it has to do with the support of people throughout Mexico so in the very beginning when the Mexican army was sent in, the numbers -- the hundreds of thousands of millions of people who mobilize throughout all of Mexico not allowing that to happen was incredibly important. So it's not just that they're just this teeny isolated area, or even large isolated area, it's that they have support of people throughout Mexico and throughout the world. So I think that's one of the large reasons -- one of the main reasons why.
Rob: Okay, good. I just -- I keep promising myself I'm going to read a whole book about the Zapatistas; such an exciting, powerful movement and the whole idea that they can exist autonomously within Mexico resisting the government, resisting the military and resisting the outside authorities. How do they do that?
If I can pitch a book that a friend of mine did, Hillary Klein put together the most lovely book about women Zapatistas and she lived in Zapatista territory for about a decade and worked very closely with Zapatista women. So living in these little villages, traveling from place to place, helping to do popular education and recording their stories. And so her book is finally coming out and it's -- there's nothing like it on the Zapatistas, and there's a lot of great work about the Zapatistas, but because she's sharing the women's voices over the course of really the entire existence of the Zapatistas and even before. So older women and grandmothers who'd been organizing before 1994 and what that meant for them as women and a kind of really reactionary space for the role of women. Women were often married at age 12 and given to men and they have no control over their lives and their bodies. So the difference in women who became Zapatistas and then the Revolutionary law for women that immediately was enacted by the Zapatistas which said women have to participate in marriage decisions and can't be married when they're of minor age, and all of these different things. But this book goes through the history of the Zapatistas and you see the different generations of women until now where there are these young women who have been born and afraid, if you will like that they've been born in Zapatista communities and they're completely different young women and young beings. I mean we get a glimpse of what a really free society could be like. So Hillary Klein is her name.
Rob: What's the book?
MS: It's with Seven Stories press and I'm forgetting the title. It'll be out in a few months. Oh it's called Companeras; which is what --
Rob: You better spell that. Companeras, okay you don't need to spell that.
MS: Companeras, yeah. C-O-M-P-A then it's an N with the enya E-R-A-S.
Rob: Yeah I got it. Well any other books too while we're at it, on the Zapatistas, what are two other good books?
MS: Our Words are our Weapons is really good, it's a lot of the writing of Marcos; I think that's also Seven Stories press.
Rob: What is the name of it again?
MS: Our Words are our Weapons; which is one of the things they say. And they are so important in the new movements, even if people don't directly know about them, never studied them, never went there, there's a kind of passed down knowledge I think, or I'm not sure how history and knowledge and memory work exactly with our movement somehow things get shared. But you can hear people say things that sound so much like the Zapatistas and it's unclear if there was a direct relationship or not. There's this song in Turkey, after Gezi Park or during the -- when people were still in Taksim square and it's this song where actually the music is banging glasses and pots and pans, so like the Argentines did in 2001. And it's this beautiful song about what they're creating and the last phrase, I can't say it in Turkish, but they say and we're going slowly, slowly, the ground is still wet. Moving slowly, slowly, the ground is still wet. And it's very much like the Zapatistas; you know we're going slowly because we're going far, kind of walk slowly, walk carefully because we're going far. And whether they read that with the Zapatistas or it's something in common, but it is I would say it's one of the grounding pieces to a lot of these movements and you see it. It's also just that circumstances around the world are increasingly similar and so people are organizing also in similar ways or are coming to very similar conclusions, so both thinks I think are true simultaneously.
Rob: To summarize though, I think it's really important to anybody who wants to be an activist nowadays needs to know about the Zapatistas and get an idea of what they have shown is possible. Alright let's move on because I've got so many questions and I don't want to run out of time. You've written a number of books on horizontalism or horizontalizad, could you just briefly describe what it is and why it's important?
MS: Sure, it's a word or term that came out of the Argentine movements in 2001. And it's a social relationship it's not a thing -- and even though in English we say horizontalism it's not an ism like socialism or communism or anarchism or any of these isms, it's kind of an anti-ism. And it's kind of like it sounds, it's a horizontal space so if you think about these assemblies and what they look like around the world or if you've participated in them, we'd stand in a circle and you all look at each other and you're trying to create relationships where no one has power over the other so kind of keeping that level space -- that level playing field and not -- yeah, being really conscientious about how to not have power over each other and to have relationships that change as people change in these spaces. So that's kind of the idea of a transforming ever-changing relationship that tries to create more equality and more space for all people and where all voices can be heard. Some people in the Occupy movement started to say horizontalism and use it to mean a specific form of consensus decision-making and I'm not sure where that came from, but that's now how people in Argentina or Greece or Spain or other places use the language; people now all kind of refer to horizontal or horizontalism and they mean mixed relationships it's intentional non-hierarchical kind of space.
Rob: You know, one of the reasons I was originally attracted to your work was I'd go to Occupy and I've visited about seven different Occupy territories and I'd do my radio show -- I call it bottom up radio and I thought Occupy is bottom up and people would correct me, no it's horizontal. But your book is describing so many bottom up ideas and processes, that's the language I like to use. Horizontalism or that approach is certainly bottom up and I just encourage you if you can throw in any areas where you see bottom up versus top down -- and that's an evolving idea that I've had. One thing that's really changed for me over the -- since I interviewed you I think in 2012 or 2011, I've always thought of bottom up as including non-hierarchical, de-sensualized as egalitarian and I've shifted to -- I don't want to talk about what it's not. Bottom up is egalitarian, it's localized, it's interdependent and cooperative and so many of the words that you use are in that same area, collective and communal. Another aspect too that I love to see that was a part of what you're describing is you talk about affective politics and one of the big areas that I think I've added for my own understanding is the idea that bottom up is empathic and caring and compassionate. To me, those are things that I thought in this book of yours, which I didn't see so much in your earlier book on horizontalism and I think it's such an important part. I realized it because I started doing a series of articles and interviews about psychopaths and sociopaths, and their big characteristics are they lack caring and compassion and empathy. And I realized that part of horizontalism and part of this kind of movement has to include those elements.
Rob: What's the book?
MS: It's with Seven Stories press and I'm forgetting the title. It'll be out in a few months. Oh it's called Companeras; which is what --
Rob: You better spell that. Companeras, okay you don't need to spell that.
MS: Companeras, yeah. C-O-M-P-A then it's an N with the enya E-R-A-S.
Rob: Yeah I got it. Well any other books too while we're at it, on the Zapatistas, what are two other good books?
MS: Our Words are our Weapons is really good, it's a lot of the writing of Marcos; I think that's also Seven Stories press.
Rob: What is the name of it again?
MS: Our Words are our Weapons; which is one of the things they say. And they are so important in the new movements, even if people don't directly know about them, never studied them, never went there, there's a kind of passed down knowledge I think, or I'm not sure how history and knowledge and memory work exactly with our movement somehow things get shared. But you can hear people say things that sound so much like the Zapatistas and it's unclear if there was a direct relationship or not. There's this song in Turkey, after Gezi Park or during the -- when people were still in Taksim square and it's this song where actually the music is banging glasses and pots and pans, so like the Argentines did in 2001. And it's this beautiful song about what they're creating and the last phrase, I can't say it in Turkish, but they say and we're going slowly, slowly, the ground is still wet. Moving slowly, slowly, the ground is still wet. And it's very much like the Zapatistas; you know we're going slowly because we're going far, kind of walk slowly, walk carefully because we're going far. And whether they read that with the Zapatistas or it's something in common, but it is I would say it's one of the grounding pieces to a lot of these movements and you see it. It's also just that circumstances around the world are increasingly similar and so people are organizing also in similar ways or are coming to very similar conclusions, so both thinks I think are true simultaneously.
Rob: To summarize though, I think it's really important to anybody who wants to be an activist nowadays needs to know about the Zapatistas and get an idea of what they have shown is possible. Alright let's move on because I've got so many questions and I don't want to run out of time. You've written a number of books on horizontalism or horizontalizad, could you just briefly describe what it is and why it's important?
MS: Sure, it's a word or term that came out of the Argentine movements in 2001. And it's a social relationship it's not a thing -- and even though in English we say horizontalism it's not an ism like socialism or communism or anarchism or any of these isms, it's kind of an anti-ism. And it's kind of like it sounds, it's a horizontal space so if you think about these assemblies and what they look like around the world or if you've participated in them, we'd stand in a circle and you all look at each other and you're trying to create relationships where no one has power over the other so kind of keeping that level space -- that level playing field and not -- yeah, being really conscientious about how to not have power over each other and to have relationships that change as people change in these spaces. So that's kind of the idea of a transforming ever-changing relationship that tries to create more equality and more space for all people and where all voices can be heard. Some people in the Occupy movement started to say horizontalism and use it to mean a specific form of consensus decision-making and I'm not sure where that came from, but that's now how people in Argentina or Greece or Spain or other places use the language; people now all kind of refer to horizontal or horizontalism and they mean mixed relationships it's intentional non-hierarchical kind of space.
Rob: You know, one of the reasons I was originally attracted to your work was I'd go to Occupy and I've visited about seven different Occupy territories and I'd do my radio show -- I call it bottom up radio and I thought Occupy is bottom up and people would correct me, no it's horizontal. But your book is describing so many bottom up ideas and processes, that's the language I like to use. Horizontalism or that approach is certainly bottom up and I just encourage you if you can throw in any areas where you see bottom up versus top down -- and that's an evolving idea that I've had. One thing that's really changed for me over the -- since I interviewed you I think in 2012 or 2011, I've always thought of bottom up as including non-hierarchical, de-sensualized as egalitarian and I've shifted to -- I don't want to talk about what it's not. Bottom up is egalitarian, it's localized, it's interdependent and cooperative and so many of the words that you use are in that same area, collective and communal. Another aspect too that I love to see that was a part of what you're describing is you talk about affective politics and one of the big areas that I think I've added for my own understanding is the idea that bottom up is empathic and caring and compassionate. To me, those are things that I thought in this book of yours, which I didn't see so much in your earlier book on horizontalism and I think it's such an important part. I realized it because I started doing a series of articles and interviews about psychopaths and sociopaths, and their big characteristics are they lack caring and compassion and empathy. And I realized that part of horizontalism and part of this kind of movement has to include those elements.
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