MS: Yeah, no I absolutely agree, I, you know and I think, just on bottom up, I think some people just get confused and think, oh up, that means you want to be in power and be in government and have power over each other. I think they misunderstand what you're talking about so it's really good you clarify. But the affective politics, you know 'a' affective, so the care, love, trust based is, I agree with you, it's just the heart -- I mean to use the language of it I guess. The heart of what so much is about and people wonder sometimes looking at the early days of the Occupy movement and the occupations of squares and plazas, you know, that all of this stuff that people were creating, making sure there were libraries and child care and sunscreen that was free on sunny days and haircuts, massages, mediation, all of these things and they were all about this caring for one another; creating a space it's not just where each person's voice can be heard, but where you feel cared for and listened to in a way that's not just listening to your voice but listening to you as a whole person and allowing you to be as a whole person. It's incredibly important and it's something that really in traditional politics, there's not space for it and it's not even discussed.
Rob: Yes, what I really liked about your discussion of Politica Affectiva -- affective politics, with an 'a', is the challenge of dealing with the machismo culture. Can you get into that a little bit?
MS: Yeah, you know, I mean it's something there's so many challenges we face because we're living in this oppressive, racist, sexist, all of society and we can't exactly get out of ourselves even if we want to, so that I'm not taking away any responsibility by saying this -- of course we're all responsible for our behaviors, but they do come from certain places and so one of the big ones is macho sexist kind of behavior. Whether that's explicit in what people are saying and doing, making spaces where women don't feel safe or it's just dominating space in assemblies and discussions. That is probably one of the most common around the world and yes, part of it comes from -- a good part of it comes from men having more space in society as a whole from wages to being in positions of power and everything else. But as we're creating these new more democratic, more horizontal spaces, we do need to work even harder at making sure there's space for everyone to speak and be heard. So it was something that has come up in our movements and that people are struggling with and trying to balance. So one of the things I think that Occupy -- there's a lot of critique and I think it's valid about not enough equality in space, in the assemblies.
Rob: Yes, what I really liked about your discussion of Politica Affectiva -- affective politics, with an 'a', is the challenge of dealing with the machismo culture. Can you get into that a little bit?
MS: Yeah, you know, I mean it's something there's so many challenges we face because we're living in this oppressive, racist, sexist, all of society and we can't exactly get out of ourselves even if we want to, so that I'm not taking away any responsibility by saying this -- of course we're all responsible for our behaviors, but they do come from certain places and so one of the big ones is macho sexist kind of behavior. Whether that's explicit in what people are saying and doing, making spaces where women don't feel safe or it's just dominating space in assemblies and discussions. That is probably one of the most common around the world and yes, part of it comes from -- a good part of it comes from men having more space in society as a whole from wages to being in positions of power and everything else. But as we're creating these new more democratic, more horizontal spaces, we do need to work even harder at making sure there's space for everyone to speak and be heard. So it was something that has come up in our movements and that people are struggling with and trying to balance. So one of the things I think that Occupy -- there's a lot of critique and I think it's valid about not enough equality in space, in the assemblies.
And while that's true, I think we did a tremendous job in struggling with these questions and trying to think differently about how assemblies happen. So doing things like having stack, you know like a stack of cards instead of having a speakers list and whoever raises their hand first speaks first because that generally falls along power lines in the society you live in. Shuffling the deck, which is why it's a stack, so okay five men have spoken in a row, we're going to shuffle the deck and we're going to make sure that women speak or in some places, assemblies decided that they would just have moments of quiet until a woman or someone who doesn't usually speak, speaks. So there were different ways and different tools that we used in our democratic processes to try to make them more democratic, but it still is an issue. In Greece the issue of machismo played out not just in speaking, but in a certain level of militancy on the front line because their -- when there are confrontations and demonstrations, they often turned into riots. And so in those moments of who's throwing a Molotov cocktail and who's having a confrontation with the police, it tends to be much more male where people use the language of male. So when the movement moved into neighborhood assemblies more than in the big plazas, this was something that neighbors talked to each other about and said this excludes a bunch of us from participating so how could we do it differently?
Rob: And you -- I gotta read a brief excerpt from your book, you say: Affect and emotion are too often relegated to the politics of gender and identity and thus not seen as quote serious end quote theory or as a potential revolutionary part of politics. This argument denies the fact that responsibility for the other in solidarity are basic conditions of a future society not grounded in capitalist principals.
MS: Yes.
Rob: In fact, relegating affective politics to the feminine realm simply reinforces gendered roles in patriarchal societies. Okay, so I want to move on because we've got so much to cover. So another concept that I love is popular power. Can you talk about that?
MS: Yeah, I mean this is something, again, that a lot of people in Latin America have been talking about and that's about what we're constructing, so what are we doing with our assemblies, with our defending people in houses and alternative healthcare and education and what is that about ultimately? And it's creating a different kind of power, and it's a power with each other and a collective power and a popular power. So it's about thinking differently about power and describing a little bit more what people are actually doing on the ground.
Click the series link below to read the second part of the transcript.
Rob: And you -- I gotta read a brief excerpt from your book, you say: Affect and emotion are too often relegated to the politics of gender and identity and thus not seen as quote serious end quote theory or as a potential revolutionary part of politics. This argument denies the fact that responsibility for the other in solidarity are basic conditions of a future society not grounded in capitalist principals.
Rob: In fact, relegating affective politics to the feminine realm simply reinforces gendered roles in patriarchal societies. Okay, so I want to move on because we've got so much to cover. So another concept that I love is popular power. Can you talk about that?
MS: Yeah, I mean this is something, again, that a lot of people in Latin America have been talking about and that's about what we're constructing, so what are we doing with our assemblies, with our defending people in houses and alternative healthcare and education and what is that about ultimately? And it's creating a different kind of power, and it's a power with each other and a collective power and a popular power. So it's about thinking differently about power and describing a little bit more what people are actually doing on the ground.
Click the series link below to read the second part of the transcript.
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