Rob: I think it gets back to that Frank Herbert quote that the structure gives, and the discipline creates the freedom.
BR: Yeah absolutely.
Rob: Managers. You mentioned middle managers tended to be people who left, how do manager roles change as the organization shifts to holacracy? What happens to managers?
BR: It's usually a fairly small minority that do end up opting out and leaving. Others will face really big personal challenges. Especially if they've wrapped their kind of self esteem and sense of self worth up in their status and place in the hierarchy. And others will have no problem with it at all, others will just embrace it and love it from the beginning.
With many people, it certainly comes with a challenge. They have to learn a new way to add value. It's not that the managers just all up and leave or disappear. And it's not that the people filling those roles become redundant or useless or whatever, rather it frees them, it liberates them to do something more valuable than just coordinating and managing. It frees them to be more entrepreneurial, to go find a way they can really add value to the organization and the customers, to go build new processes, new systems, new functions, whatever it is in the organization. It frees them to take on more direct roles that are creating value for customers.
Often, your managers are some of your more experienced people. They're people that have a lot of insights, a lot of wisdom, a lot of ideas, and if all they're doing is coordinating others all the time, that may not be the best way for them to express some of that creativity and wisdom and all that. So there is a bit of a crisis holacracy can create. which is 'what do I do now if I'm not just managing with all of my time.' But on the other side of that there's opportunity to get really back to adding real value instead of just being kind of a necessary evil to scale a company.
I don't know many people who aspire to middle management. I know a lot more people aspire to doing great stuff and adding real value to the world or aspire to being a great leader and with holacracy, everyone gets to be more of a leader of their piece, their roles, whatever they're contributing. Yeah I think it frees them up. And that comes with an interesting personal challenge for many of them.
Rob: What about money? What about payroll and salary when you shift to holacracy for managers and others?
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