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Paul Jay
What is the situation in Iran now? I see a number, something like 40,000 deaths, and many people think
that's actually a major underestimation. How badly are the Iranian people being affected by sanctions?
And what if there are more sanctions, especially at this time?
Trita Parsi
The sanctions have clearly been absolutely devastating for the Iranians, particularly when the Covid
pandemic is happening at the same time. It was quite something to see the Trump administration
explicitly talk about Covid being something that would amplify and augment the impact of sanctions. I
mean, I think it reveals the cruelty that has been the intent behind these sanctions. Now, of course, the
government's own corruption and its own mismanagement have also considerably contributed to the
difficulties that exist right now in terms of Covid.
The hopes, however, for some form of a return to the JCPOA and brighter days seems to be there. But
my own sense, talking to a lot of Iranians of late, is that there is a tremendous cautiousness when it
comes to being optimistic. Last time, they were optimistic when the JCPOA came in. And they had good
reasons to be optimistic. Nevertheless, they saw all of their hopes being dashed with Trump coming in,
reversing the deal, and reimposing sanctions. And even before he came in, the sanctions relief process
had not at all worked the way that most people had expected it to work, and the way the Iranians had
demanded that it should work. So, there is some caution, but at the same time some optimism, that with
Biden coming in and intending to return [to the JCPOA], that there could be some sort of respite from
some very, very dark years that the Iranians have suffered through.
Paul Jay
There was some discussion or speculation about whether the Iranians would even want to return to a
deal, given that, "they don't really have a reliable partner." You never know every four years whether you
actually have an agreement or not. But it seems like the Iranian government is sending signals that they
do want the Americans back in [the agreement].
Trita Parsi
Yeah, I think they do. I think they will try to see if there is some form of guarantee. There is obviously no
complete guarantee that can be offered, but there can be mechanisms put in place. In fact, there should
be mechanisms put in place to make sure that this deal is not going to be at the whim of whoever wins
the White House next time, that it will be insulated from such political events. At the end of the day, this
was tremendously irresponsible of the United States: to take a deal that the entire international
community was behind, with the exception of Saudi Arabia, UAE and Israel; that had fifteen-to-zero votes
in the UN Security Council; that clearly lay in the strategic national interest of the United States and to
then let that become a political football. That is the height of irresponsibility. And I think it's quite
reasonable for other countries, not just Iran, to expect that mechanisms will be put in place to make sure
that this cannot happen again.
Paul Jay
If Biden follows through on his pledge not to support the Saudi war in Yemen any longer and if he follows
through and actually does return the United States to the nuclear agreement, is there somewhat of a
realignment taking place vis-Ã -vis the US relationship with the Saudis? And, one would think, if that's the
case, I don't know what the Saudis can do about it between now and January 20th but they must not be
very happy about a Biden government coming in.
Trita Parsi
They're certainly not happy. And taking a look at how they have responded so far or not responded [to
Biden's victory], I think that's indicative of how worried they are. I mean, this is a government that really
invested in the Trump administration. So, did the Netanyahu government and the MBZ [i.e., Mohammed
bin Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan, the Crown Prince of the Emirate of Abu Dhabi and Deputy Supreme
Commander of the United Arab Emirates Armed Forces] government in the UAE.
But I think that in terms of what will happen next and how the Saudis will view it, I don't think there is any
appetite in the Biden administration for some sort of a realignment in terms of the US moving closer to
Iran. I think at most there is an appetite for redefining the US-Saudi relationship. There I do think the
Biden administration needs to go pretty far. I mean, one has to ask oneself, what do the Saudis need to
do before there is an agreement in the White House, whether it's a Republican or Democratic White
House, that there's something off with this relationship between the United States and Saudi Arabia, that
something in that relationship needs to fundamentally change?
I'm not talking about the US and the Saudis becoming enemies. I'm just saying that it cannot be the way it
is. It cannot be a strategic partnership if the Saudis are engaged in a genocide in Yemen, if they are
cutting off the heads of columnists of The Washington Post. I mean, what do they need to do before that
realization comes into place in the White House?
Paul Jay
Well, a lot of people think they were directly involved in 9/11, and that didn't seem to affect the
relationship.
Trita Parsi
The politics have changed. I mean, just take a look at how Democrats are talking about Saudi Arabia
today. It's quite dramatically different. The question is, will they act on it or is it just something that they're
saying during an election year?
Paul Jay
OK, well, we'll see once Biden gets in. Just very quickly, what will Biden's choice of secretary of state tell
us about where he's heading on Iran? Or are all of the possibilities more or less on the same side when it
comes to the nuclear deal with Iran?
Trita Parsi
I think the biggest thing I would look for when it comes to who he appoints as secretary of state is to see
what it tells us about the willingness of the Biden administration to think outside of the box when it comes
to American foreign policy. I mean, we're now in a situation in which there is essentially one 9/11's worth
of American deaths every three days. Every three days, we have the equivalent of a 9/11. And $800
billion sent to the Pentagon has done absolutely nothing for that. This over-militarized foreign policy has
done nothing to protect the American people from the real threats of this era, which are not the invasion
of the United States by another country, but rather pandemics, climate chaos, etc. Is there going to be
that willingness to really profoundly revisit the first principles of American foreign policy and America's
military posture abroad? Or will there be just some marginal changes in the hope of making sure that
you know, "At least it's not Trump running the show"? That is what I'm going to be most focused on when
it comes to who he appoints at the State Department.
Paul Jay
All right. Thanks for joining us, Trita.
Trita Parsi
Thank you so much for having me.
Paul Jay
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