Chris Scott: Is it your sense that the laws, in terms of environmental protection, in protecting communities that are near mining operations, is it your understanding that the laws just aren't applied? Or is it the problem that the laws just don't exist? Or do we even know at this point?
Ezili Dantò: The laws exist. Whether they're adequate? We don't know. Whether they're being applied? That we know, they are not being applied. Because if the people themselves don't know what's going on. And if the people themselves don't know what their rights are, or who the folks that are coming in are. Then that means, whatever those laws are, the mayor can't, you know, say that this X, Y and Z law requires that you get in touch with me first, that I know what's going on, that I am able to protect my people. But none of that happens. So whatever the law is, and I know that on paper there are certain environmental laws that Haiti has. But on paper. Just like on paper there's supposed to be some sort of Haitian participation. But, you know, it's all window dressing. At the end of the day, they're not being enforced. And as I said, ways of not enforcing it is destroying the archives. So that nobody knows who owes what, or nobody knows... and then redo the data. Redo it under occupation. So, that's basically it.
But folks have to understand, the Haitian people had experiences before, with let's say, the bauxite, where Reynolds Aluminum was in Haiti for a long, long time and after they left the place was just a crater. The people wanted to know... I mean, we didn't benefit.
Chris Scott: What years are we talking about?
[Editor's Note: Reynolds Aluminum was in Haiti for over 20-years and closed and abandoned its bauxite mine in 1982. Click here for some photos of the old Reynolds Aluminum facility, dock, port, airport in Miragaone, Haiti and info on the 2004 purchase of the old Reynolds facility during the UN occupation and return of the wealthy elite's rule of Haiti.]
Ezili Dantò: I mean, it was in the seventies. So now when, see there was an education process in Haiti. For the first time we had a democratically elected government. And I remember that in 1999 when President Aristide was campaigning, for his second term, for the first time the people were given what this Lavalas party was going to do and it was called the "White Book." And in that book there was a list of all the various minerals and sites. And it's on my website. There is a map that shows where the various minerals are. So that between 1991 and 1994 [Note: - 1991 to 1994 are the dates of the first coup d'etat, this date here should instead be "between 1994 to 2004"] when the people had a voice in government, there was an intense grassroots movement to figure out how they could use Haiti's resources. There was a plan, where the Lavalas government, not only told the people where the resources were, but that -- they did not have the skills and technology to actually extract the gold, to extract the oil... Their plan was they were going to engage in some sort of private/public partnership. Where both the people's interest would be taken care of and of course the private interest would take their profits. But I think it was around that time we had St. Genevieve saying they did not like the Haitian government. Obviously, they didn't like this plan. They don't like the Haitian people to know where their resources are. But in this book, it was the first time in Haitian history, it was done in Kreyòl and in French. And there was a national discussion all over the radio with respect to all these various resources, where they were located, and how the government was intending on trying to build sustainable development through those resources. So that's what you had before the Coup D'etat. With the Coup D'etat now, though the people know where these resources are because this book exists, they don't know who these foreign companies are. What they're profit margins are. What the environmental protection rules and regulations to protect them are. Many folks, for instance, in the North talk about losing their property, having people come in with guns and taking over their property. So that's where we are.
Chris Scott: Ms. Laurent, you're a lawyer. You, I understand work on this full time. And I understand its a big, big, big problem. But do you, are you able to do something in terms of the Lawyers Network? Are you able to go and do access for information request? Or something similar? Are you able to actually go on site and get some information or take testimony from people. How does someone who works on this full time try to shed light on what's actually going on?
Marguerite Laurent/Ezili Dantò: Well, number one, one of our biggest challenges is to tell the world that the powers that are in Haiti at the moment are not there to so-call "protect Haitian security." They are there securing an economic track. They are there trying to secure their privatization, their neo-liberal agenda, their sweatshops and their use of Haitian resources for their major conglomerates, and Haiti's oil resources. And as I said five [oil] sites, and that's not even including stuff that's in water [offshore.] So that Haitians are aware of with respect to own country. [Editor's Note: For instance, Cuban territorial waters flow into Haiti waters. See, Cuba oil/gas prospects and contract with Brazil for offshore drilling]. We, as an organization spend most of our time actually trying to uncover the information. We have asked the Bureau of Mines for, let's say, the contracts. We are ignored, obviously. We'd like to see the conventions that has to be signed, between the companies, like St. Genevieve and the Bureau des Mines and Energy in Haiti. We don't get those things. We are pushing, obviously the various political figures, that are interested in the people's rights, to ask for these contracts. To find out what's going on. So that's one of the things that we do. But the primary stuff is just to establish that Haiti has resources. I mean, the colonial narrative is that Haiti is so poor, its a beggar country, and it doesn't have any resources that possibly Canada and these Canadian companies could want to go into Haiti and excavate for. So that's why programs like yours are so important. Because we get to tell the world that Haiti has gold. As a matter of fact, you know, there was an article that talked about Haiti is littered with gold. That Haiti has copper. That Haiti has silver. That Haiti has all these various oil sites. That behind the UN gun, something is happening.
Chris Scott: Yeah. And maybe, you could just tell us just to make it explicit, the people that you're dealing with, that you are communicating with in the North of Haiti and elsewhere. What are the concerns they have about the way exploitation is being done? In terms of having their properties trampled, I can understand that very clearly. But in terms of some of the longer term, some of the environmental affects, what have they communicated to you?
Ezili Dantò: Well you know, the kind of interesting thing is that , a lot of the folks, they don't know. They really don't know, some of them, that the extraction of gold and copper and so forth has this cyanide process, or this process that when it hits the wind, you have all the various poisons in the air that will cause public hell. The geologist, the Haitian geologists knows. And they publish papers and we're working with them, in terms of the educational process, to let the folks know, you know, all the chemicals for instance deep in the veins of the rock when those chemicals go and they seep through, you have this possibility of, you know... Haiti is a country that's so fragile already. Everyone knows that deforestation is a problem. Everyone knows that the last hurricanes destroyed the whole city of Gonaives. Which is almost about 350,000 people were rendered virtually homeless. There was a billion dollars in damage and this was because of the deforestation. But imagine now that you have companies digging into the mountains of Haiti and leaving these craters and leaving these...
Chris Scott: Toxic chemicals.
Ezili Dantò...lethal sorts of illnesses, to the farmland, livestock, the water, the air that the extraction process will, you know, the leaking cyanide and other chemicals used in the extraction process will affect nearby farmland and the livestock and so forth.
So we don't have any reports yet with respect to those things. As I said, you know, our resources are very limited. What folks have been talking to us about are the UN coming in and cordoning of areas, or the "blan" coming in (they call foreigners' blan) coming in, and setting up their various mining operations. That's what we've been told. We have not gotten information about livestock devastation right now. Because, everything is sort of... We think things are at a small scale right now. [Editor's Note:Mining Haiti's mountains for extraction of raw materials for the construction industry is at a bigger scale and some of it has been steadily going on since before the 1980s, with perhaps Haiti-people orientated oversight/questions posed, only during the 1994-2004 people's governments. The digging up of Haiti post-Bush Regime Change/Coup D'etat companies has intensified. But it is the poor Haitian peasants use of charcoal for fuel that is primarily blamed for Haiti's soil erosion and deforestation]. We don't know to what extent that they've actually started their [gold/copper/silver...] excavation processes. Because everything is cordoned off, Haitian's can't see in. That's really all I can say with respect to what's going on. We can't, we don't know what's going on inside.
All we know is that areas that Haitians were able to travel and go to, right now they cannot go to those areas. So in terms of soil contamination... I can say though, that we have noticed and folks in Haiti understand the difference between 2004 when this coup d'etat happened. As I was saying, we had an empowered constituency of Haitians and grassroots organizations from 1994-2004, and there was sort of an impasse because there was a fight between the companies who had gotten their concessions and the people in congress in Haiti there was just an impasse. Because there was a big discussion as to what these companies were going to be doing and how this was going to benefit sustainable development. But there is no such discussion now.
Right now, all we know is that these companies are getting contract after contracts and the places are being cordoned off. And we can see between the 2004 and the 2008 hurricanes, the actual granite, the actual mudcake on the people's faces. You can see the difference between a mudslide in 2004 and how much it's intensified in 2008. We can see the degradation. And its happening because of the digging up of Haiti. Because in addition to these Canadian companies, there are other companies that are digging up Haiti, for construction materials and limestone and all this other stuff - marble. Haitian marble is on the international market a very important and its pure. The purity of these resources in Haiti. The grade of them is so high. Minerals in Haiti the grade of it is so high. Because Haiti is one of the oldest land mass in the Americas. And because Haiti is a land of mountains after mountains, that's [part of ] what Ayiti [Haiti] means, you have all these minerals inside of these mountains. Our concerns of course is what's going to happen to the ground water. What's going to happen to the air? What's going to happen to the people? What are the profits? You know... and what guarantee do the people have that there is going to be any sustainable development, beyond some temporary jobs for miners? Because we know in the process of gold and copper mining they need a lot of water. Haitians wonder, where are they going to get them from. Are they going to build these dams. Who's going to enforce that there's no big accident, like that happened in 2000 in Romania, where one of these mining companies just leaked out these chemicals into the river. The Artibonnite river is not that far. And it's where Haiti's breadbasket is. If that's contaminated, what are we going to do? But there's no discussion of any of this in Haiti right now. Whereas under the democratic government there was intense discussion of these issues.
Chris Scott: If Haiti regains its sovereignty at some point in the future. What is the way forward? In terms of mining it, you'd still be dealing with these companies which are very cynical. They'll try to get the best deal they can and damn the consequences. Will the sovereign Haitian government still have to deal with these companies? Will they try to mine in some way on their own? Will they deal with companies like Cuba, perhaps, who have a different experience with dealing with foreign capital? What is the way forward for Haiti from here on in?
Ezili Dantò: The laws exist. Whether they're adequate? We don't know. Whether they're being applied? That we know, they are not being applied. Because if the people themselves don't know what's going on. And if the people themselves don't know what their rights are, or who the folks that are coming in are. Then that means, whatever those laws are, the mayor can't, you know, say that this X, Y and Z law requires that you get in touch with me first, that I know what's going on, that I am able to protect my people. But none of that happens. So whatever the law is, and I know that on paper there are certain environmental laws that Haiti has. But on paper. Just like on paper there's supposed to be some sort of Haitian participation. But, you know, it's all window dressing. At the end of the day, they're not being enforced. And as I said, ways of not enforcing it is destroying the archives. So that nobody knows who owes what, or nobody knows... and then redo the data. Redo it under occupation. So, that's basically it.
But folks have to understand, the Haitian people had experiences before, with let's say, the bauxite, where Reynolds Aluminum was in Haiti for a long, long time and after they left the place was just a crater. The people wanted to know... I mean, we didn't benefit.
Chris Scott: What years are we talking about?
Ezili Dantò: I mean, it was in the seventies. So now when, see there was an education process in Haiti. For the first time we had a democratically elected government. And I remember that in 1999 when President Aristide was campaigning, for his second term, for the first time the people were given what this Lavalas party was going to do and it was called the "White Book." And in that book there was a list of all the various minerals and sites. And it's on my website. There is a map that shows where the various minerals are. So that between 1991 and 1994 [Note: - 1991 to 1994 are the dates of the first coup d'etat, this date here should instead be "between 1994 to 2004"] when the people had a voice in government, there was an intense grassroots movement to figure out how they could use Haiti's resources. There was a plan, where the Lavalas government, not only told the people where the resources were, but that -- they did not have the skills and technology to actually extract the gold, to extract the oil... Their plan was they were going to engage in some sort of private/public partnership. Where both the people's interest would be taken care of and of course the private interest would take their profits. But I think it was around that time we had St. Genevieve saying they did not like the Haitian government. Obviously, they didn't like this plan. They don't like the Haitian people to know where their resources are. But in this book, it was the first time in Haitian history, it was done in Kreyòl and in French. And there was a national discussion all over the radio with respect to all these various resources, where they were located, and how the government was intending on trying to build sustainable development through those resources. So that's what you had before the Coup D'etat. With the Coup D'etat now, though the people know where these resources are because this book exists, they don't know who these foreign companies are. What they're profit margins are. What the environmental protection rules and regulations to protect them are. Many folks, for instance, in the North talk about losing their property, having people come in with guns and taking over their property. So that's where we are.
Chris Scott: Ms. Laurent, you're a lawyer. You, I understand work on this full time. And I understand its a big, big, big problem. But do you, are you able to do something in terms of the Lawyers Network? Are you able to go and do access for information request? Or something similar? Are you able to actually go on site and get some information or take testimony from people. How does someone who works on this full time try to shed light on what's actually going on?
Marguerite Laurent/Ezili Dantò: Well, number one, one of our biggest challenges is to tell the world that the powers that are in Haiti at the moment are not there to so-call "protect Haitian security." They are there securing an economic track. They are there trying to secure their privatization, their neo-liberal agenda, their sweatshops and their use of Haitian resources for their major conglomerates, and Haiti's oil resources. And as I said five [oil] sites, and that's not even including stuff that's in water [offshore.] So that Haitians are aware of with respect to own country. [Editor's Note: For instance, Cuban territorial waters flow into Haiti waters. See, Cuba oil/gas prospects and contract with Brazil for offshore drilling]. We, as an organization spend most of our time actually trying to uncover the information. We have asked the Bureau of Mines for, let's say, the contracts. We are ignored, obviously. We'd like to see the conventions that has to be signed, between the companies, like St. Genevieve and the Bureau des Mines and Energy in Haiti. We don't get those things. We are pushing, obviously the various political figures, that are interested in the people's rights, to ask for these contracts. To find out what's going on. So that's one of the things that we do. But the primary stuff is just to establish that Haiti has resources. I mean, the colonial narrative is that Haiti is so poor, its a beggar country, and it doesn't have any resources that possibly Canada and these Canadian companies could want to go into Haiti and excavate for. So that's why programs like yours are so important. Because we get to tell the world that Haiti has gold. As a matter of fact, you know, there was an article that talked about Haiti is littered with gold. That Haiti has copper. That Haiti has silver. That Haiti has all these various oil sites. That behind the UN gun, something is happening.
Chris Scott: Yeah. And maybe, you could just tell us just to make it explicit, the people that you're dealing with, that you are communicating with in the North of Haiti and elsewhere. What are the concerns they have about the way exploitation is being done? In terms of having their properties trampled, I can understand that very clearly. But in terms of some of the longer term, some of the environmental affects, what have they communicated to you?
Ezili Dantò: Well you know, the kind of interesting thing is that , a lot of the folks, they don't know. They really don't know, some of them, that the extraction of gold and copper and so forth has this cyanide process, or this process that when it hits the wind, you have all the various poisons in the air that will cause public hell. The geologist, the Haitian geologists knows. And they publish papers and we're working with them, in terms of the educational process, to let the folks know, you know, all the chemicals for instance deep in the veins of the rock when those chemicals go and they seep through, you have this possibility of, you know... Haiti is a country that's so fragile already. Everyone knows that deforestation is a problem. Everyone knows that the last hurricanes destroyed the whole city of Gonaives. Which is almost about 350,000 people were rendered virtually homeless. There was a billion dollars in damage and this was because of the deforestation. But imagine now that you have companies digging into the mountains of Haiti and leaving these craters and leaving these...
Chris Scott: Toxic chemicals.
Ezili Dantò...lethal sorts of illnesses, to the farmland, livestock, the water, the air that the extraction process will, you know, the leaking cyanide and other chemicals used in the extraction process will affect nearby farmland and the livestock and so forth.
So we don't have any reports yet with respect to those things. As I said, you know, our resources are very limited. What folks have been talking to us about are the UN coming in and cordoning of areas, or the "blan" coming in (they call foreigners' blan) coming in, and setting up their various mining operations. That's what we've been told. We have not gotten information about livestock devastation right now. Because, everything is sort of... We think things are at a small scale right now. [Editor's Note:Mining Haiti's mountains for extraction of raw materials for the construction industry is at a bigger scale and some of it has been steadily going on since before the 1980s, with perhaps Haiti-people orientated oversight/questions posed, only during the 1994-2004 people's governments. The digging up of Haiti post-Bush Regime Change/Coup D'etat companies has intensified. But it is the poor Haitian peasants use of charcoal for fuel that is primarily blamed for Haiti's soil erosion and deforestation]. We don't know to what extent that they've actually started their [gold/copper/silver...] excavation processes. Because everything is cordoned off, Haitian's can't see in. That's really all I can say with respect to what's going on. We can't, we don't know what's going on inside.
All we know is that areas that Haitians were able to travel and go to, right now they cannot go to those areas. So in terms of soil contamination... I can say though, that we have noticed and folks in Haiti understand the difference between 2004 when this coup d'etat happened. As I was saying, we had an empowered constituency of Haitians and grassroots organizations from 1994-2004, and there was sort of an impasse because there was a fight between the companies who had gotten their concessions and the people in congress in Haiti there was just an impasse. Because there was a big discussion as to what these companies were going to be doing and how this was going to benefit sustainable development. But there is no such discussion now.
Right now, all we know is that these companies are getting contract after contracts and the places are being cordoned off. And we can see between the 2004 and the 2008 hurricanes, the actual granite, the actual mudcake on the people's faces. You can see the difference between a mudslide in 2004 and how much it's intensified in 2008. We can see the degradation. And its happening because of the digging up of Haiti. Because in addition to these Canadian companies, there are other companies that are digging up Haiti, for construction materials and limestone and all this other stuff - marble. Haitian marble is on the international market a very important and its pure. The purity of these resources in Haiti. The grade of them is so high. Minerals in Haiti the grade of it is so high. Because Haiti is one of the oldest land mass in the Americas. And because Haiti is a land of mountains after mountains, that's [part of ] what Ayiti [Haiti] means, you have all these minerals inside of these mountains. Our concerns of course is what's going to happen to the ground water. What's going to happen to the air? What's going to happen to the people? What are the profits? You know... and what guarantee do the people have that there is going to be any sustainable development, beyond some temporary jobs for miners? Because we know in the process of gold and copper mining they need a lot of water. Haitians wonder, where are they going to get them from. Are they going to build these dams. Who's going to enforce that there's no big accident, like that happened in 2000 in Romania, where one of these mining companies just leaked out these chemicals into the river. The Artibonnite river is not that far. And it's where Haiti's breadbasket is. If that's contaminated, what are we going to do? But there's no discussion of any of this in Haiti right now. Whereas under the democratic government there was intense discussion of these issues.
Chris Scott: If Haiti regains its sovereignty at some point in the future. What is the way forward? In terms of mining it, you'd still be dealing with these companies which are very cynical. They'll try to get the best deal they can and damn the consequences. Will the sovereign Haitian government still have to deal with these companies? Will they try to mine in some way on their own? Will they deal with companies like Cuba, perhaps, who have a different experience with dealing with foreign capital? What is the way forward for Haiti from here on in?
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