Steven Rosenfeld: Right. I'm looking at the front page of today's New York Times where it says, "GOP Senators embrace plan for tax-cut that adds to the deficit." It basically said they're not going to pay attention to what nonpartisan economists say the impact will be. This is erasing the past, in Orwell's terms, and -- He has his hero in 1984, Winston, say at one point that, "If you can hold up three fingers and say that's three figures, that's the beginning of freedom." Of course, that character in 1984, Winston, is tortured by the government until he sobs, "Hold up as many fingers as you like, and I'll tell you whatever number that is. That's whatever you like. If you say three fingers, I'll say it's three. If you say it's five, I'll say it's five." Then they say, "No, you don't just say it, you have to believe it too." And he was eventually tortured into that.
Thomas Ricks: And it's pissing all over today's facts. It's saying, "We don't care about the facts. We are going to let ideology dominate."
Steven Rosenfeld: Right, and that's what so important about what you have written about, because what readers end up getting is a profile of Churchill, and more so with Orwell, of how an individual can react, and what journalists are supposed to do. Journalists are supposed to recognize the delusions public figures utter and expect people to believe and push back. Individuals are also supposed to ask questions, but it's hard to break with herd mentalities.
Thomas Ricks: And when you do, you're attacked for doing so. The basic job with journalism is the basic job of anyone of goodwill in a democratic society. It is to perceive the facts, and then act upon them. For the journalists, the act is to write about. For other people, the act is to act upon them in some other way.
But in a really inflamed political situation, in a time of political turmoil, when political parties are changing rapidly, when there's no solid political ground, when compromise is seen as betrayal, when you have a president who believes only in personal loyalty to himself, but doesn't give it back by the way, when you have that kind of situation, people who insist on the facts become the enemies of many other people. It's an uncomfortable position to be in sometimes. I'm not saying it's comfortable.
One of the things that striking about Orwell and Churchill, is both became deeply alienated from their own natural political allies. Churchill spent the 1930s insisting that Nazism is becoming stronger, is becoming a threat. That goes against the policy of his party, and of his government, because his conservative party is running the government. For that, he is essentially sent into, what he calls, the political wilderness for an entire decade of the 1930s. He has shunned. He is mocked. He is seen as really a washed up old politician, who is really no longer relevant.
Orwell, likewise, having stood up and said, "Look, the left is not always telling the truth about what's going on in Spain, and we need to be careful here." Orwell also ran into problems with his friends and political allies. Some friends told him he was terribly wrong. He actually found it very hard to get published. Animal Farm, his first classic novel, was turned down by multiple publishers. In fact, an official in the British government went to publishers and London and said, "We don't think you should publish this." Orwell didn't know it at the time, but that official, Peter Smollett, turns out to have been working secretly for the Soviet Union at the time.
Steven Rosenfeld: Yes. When I was reading this, I found so much resonant today, because we are in a media environment where we are deluged with more opinion than information. At the same time, you have the highest levels of government not earning the trust and allegiance of its citizens, but telling them to do what they're told. How dangerous do you think this is?
Thomas Riggs: I think we are at an extremely dangerous political moment in American history. In many ways, while the international situation right now reminds me somewhat of the 1930s, the domestic situation in America reminds me a lot of the 1850s. That's worrisome of course, because the 1850s were followed by the American Civil War.
I've actually had a series of conversations with some retired national security officials, some retired military officers, who are increasingly worried that we are heading for some kind of civil war in this country. Not necessarily a big military set piece battle with Gettysburg type of things, but some kind of chronic, sustained political violence, in which violence plays a large role in shaping politics, which was true by the way, of the 1850s in America, especially in Kansas. But it was also true in the 1930s, internationally. I think you could see this from the left, as well as the right -- chronic political violence, assassinations of judges, nullification juries, state government saying they won't go along with the federal government. I'm worried that the left will play into this. For example, there's nothing that the neo-right, the new right, strategists would like more...
It's a hard time politically. People who insist on the facts, are finding themselves unwelcome, even among their own parties, their own natural allies. I think we especially have to pay attention to people who are willing to call out their own sides. This is the commonality of Churchill and Orwell, but it's also something you see today with American politics. People who really interest me a lot, are the people on the left who are willing to criticize the left, and the people of the right, who are willing to criticize the right.
The most interesting political commentary these days, I find coming from anti-Trump conservatives, who tend to be classic conservatives. People who believe in rule of law, the Constitution, traditional values, and basically American institutions -- classic conservatism. Their critique of Trump is that he believes in none of those things. That he is against the rule of the law. He is ignorant of the Constitution, and he attacks institutions like the judiciary. These people say, "Trump is not conservative. Don't call him a conservative. He's a reactionary."
I'm not a conservative myself, and so I find that critique illuminating. It makes me understand Trump in a way I wouldn't have otherwise. In fact, one of the gripes I have with American journalism these days, American political journalism, is that it keeps on referring to Trump as a conservative. I'm persuaded by reading these writers; a bunch of them at The Atlantic, like David Frum and Eliot Cohen. Some people at The Washington Post, like former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson. Jennifer Rubin, even Peggy Noonan of The Wall Street Journal sometimes, even Charles Krauthammer on Fox sometimes. These people have made it pretty clear that Trump is not a conservative, and I think it's an error and professional misdeed for political journalists to present Trump as a conservative.
Steven Rosenfeld: The afterword in the book is almost written in an advisory way, as a swansong to people still practicing journalism. It talks about what's happened to journalism through a set of lenses Orwell would appreciate, particularly what's happened with Silicon Valley. Outside the executive branch, you have this giant technological apparatus that's spying on everybody, creating profiles, selling those mostly to the private sector, but also sharing them with governments, and people don't seem to mind.
Thomas Ricks: No. It's kind of shocking to me that the major product of Silicon Valley is you and me, the American individual, that they're mining our lives, literally. I was kind of struck that Orwell, as a writer, went out and actually, in England, went down to the coal mines to write about the coal miners. What we need today is writers who go down into the mines of Silicon Valley, and write about how our lives are being excavated and exploited as resources by these big new companies; Google, Apple, Microsoft, and a score of others.
Steven Rosenfeld: Having thought about this so much, what would be the takeaways you would want to impart to people who care about representative government, and care about informative media, and care leading their lives with a certain amount of privacy and dignity?
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