Marina: Yeah, I think that would also be true and this is, I think, where it can be dangerous, too, when you start to name things, that they become things. And so if you see it as a process, it's constantly changing as people are involved, whatever that thing is that you're creating together changes. So, the danger is to come into an assembly, for example, in Occupy and people say, "Okay, we're horizontal. That's just the way it is," and it doesn't actually make it so to say it. You know, to say someone is a Feminist, or an anti-racist. It doesn't actually make it so because you put the word on it. So it's a constant struggle to create to whatever it is that that thing is. I mean I think of horizontalism as a relationship, but as a constant changing process. I think both would be great.
Rob: Okay. Yeah, I think that it's a combination of a relationship and a process, and it's constantly evolving, and I think you've made it clear in the book that creativity is--not you, but the voices in the book have made it clear; and I have to be careful about that, because this book is about a lot of people's voices, and you've collected and curated them, I think.
Marina: I would see it like I was a bit of facilitator of a conversation, and if there are any errors, it's my fault, and I definitely organized things thematically. So, the chapters are organized by things like, "Horizontalism" or "Power" or "New Subjectivity." People talking about themselves as new actors and agents, protagonists in their life, and how they change as people, and so I organized those kinds of conservations around the chapter and the idea of subjectivity. Or people talked about feelings, and how a lot of what was being created was based on a foundation of trust and care for one another, and even love for one another. Not that you need to be friends, or that you don't get real angry or have conflict, but that kind of base feeling of trust. And so, as people were talking about that more and more, I organized a chapter on effective politics, because they talked about P olitica Effectiva, which, again, so it's all people's voices in the movements in Argentina, but the thematic areas are one's that I placed on it. So, my fingerprint is on it, but it's everybody else's voices.
Rob: And I want to get into a good number of those as we move through this interview. There's one phrase that I picked up on that seems to really resonate with me. It's called "The Politics of Walking." Apparently that comes from the Zapatistas?
Marina: Uh-huh. / It comes from the--
Rob: / Can we talk about?
Marina: Sure. That actually comes from this Zapatistas, but it comes from even before the Zapatistas. It has so many things that the Zapatistas got known for saying, " Caminando preguntándonos," walking we ask questions.
There's a very famous Mayan story, and it's called the story of questions, and it's been told and retold throughout history in indigenous communities in Mexico. And it's a story of two Gods and how they're attached physically, like they were Siamese twins. They're physically attached in their bodies, and they learned that they can't walk without first talking to each other. They must communicate to walk, and they have to figure out where they are going and how they're going where they're going, and there's this walking, asking questions. It's the only way to move forward is through asking, and that's how they tell that story. But even before this Zapatistas, this was something that's been used throughout Latin America in different ways at different times.
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