Rob: And you really cover this extensively in the book.
GL: Well, I do.
Rob: That's a teaser.
GL: That's a teaser.
Rob: Buy this book. I can't recommend it hardly enough. So, we're coming near the end, I do want to ask you about one thing. In one chapter of your book it's called questing. And in questing you talk about nomads and you specifically talk about Cain and Abel and how Cain, who was part of - how did I - oh I got to find it here. Cain was the builder of the first city, he killed Abel who was a nomad.
GL: Right.
Rob: And then you go on to say that the first archaeological evidence of war is that war began as theft.
GL: Right.
Rob: So, I want to dance around that area a little bit.
GL: Okay, in what sense?
Rob: Well, Cain - we were talking archetypal characters in the bible.
GL: Yeah.
Rob: Cain is the builder of the first city. I have questions about the value of civilization. I mean here we are, we're in the middle of it, it's not going to go away, but civilization has had some side effects, and murder is one of them.
GL: Yeah.
Rob: And war, that came out of farming.
GL: Right, the stockpiling of goods and other people found easier to steal than to produce themselves. And this taps into your bottom up and top down paradigm too, just in the sense that we are both nomads and settlers and we have both of those urges inside us very strongly. You know, this is why I loved the interview that I conducted with a guy named Robert Greenway. I don't know if you remember this, this is in the wildness chapter. Greenway is considered the father of Eco psychology and - which started at Sonoma State University in the early nineteen sixties when he was taking students out into the wilderness for lengthy trips, right? And from a couple of days to a couple of weeks at a time and one of the discoveries that he had, exactly -
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