BK: I think the undermining is already underway! The calls to fire Chris Matthews forced him to apologize. Bernie's response during the debate about the need to be honest about American foreign policy over the years -- all the hellish subversion we've been involved with, all the dictators we've supported -- required standing up to the meme, or what i called the cliche, of American greatness and that took a big gouge out of the Great Cliche. I believe there is a rumbling of change happening in this country that I haven't felt since the late '60s, when the civil rights movement birthed the anti-war movement, which was followed by women's rights, gay rights and, eventually, environmentalism. The country was changing, but the powers that be finally gathered their courage and their cash and were able to squash the "revolution." I think the revolution has returned.
JB: That's encouraging! On the other hand, the DNC is, and has been, a bastion of resistance to all things Bernie. There was a NY Times article today about 93 superdelegates and "others" in key leadership positions who are preparing to thwart a Bernie run if they have to, in order to "save" the party. Your thoughts?
BK: No surprise! The party insiders still see the Bernie movement as the Nazi invasion of France (the Matthews analogy). These guys are willing, as the Times put it, to "risk intraparty damage" to stop him. No doubt many of these insiders see a Trump second term as far preferable to a Sanders presidency, so they would do what's necessary to destroy the Democratic Party if they had to. All of this is excruciatingly frustrating, and signals that the country itself is on the verge of political collapse. I certainly have no answer to this, except to continue pursuing peace, justice and sanity and let the chips fall where they may.
JB: I hear you. The question is if the average voter is willing to support a candidate who, in many people's eyes and the prevailing meme, would be responsible for tearing the party apart. The centrists and neo-liberals who dominate Democratic party politics are unwilling to give up their power and status. They aren't really interested in expanding the base to include minorities or the young or those who are to the left of where they are, which is center-right. What would you say to them? What would you say to voters facing tough choices in the days ahead?
BK: Consider the consequences of surrender, of shrugging your shoulders and conceding that power belongs to the powerful. The issues won't go away! They'll only get worse. Profound change -- in how we relate to Planet Earth and one another -- will not be easy. Change is never easy. But consider the consequences of giving up!
JB: Indeed. But sometimes, not changing can have even more painful consequences than changing, making it a little more palatable to embrace the new and unfamiliar. Many pundits are drawing unflattering analogies between Bernie and the ill-fated George McGovern back in '72. Your thoughts?
BK: McGovern was the last presidential candidate who spoke against a current war and advocated change at many levels. His campaign was destroyed, partly by bad luck (the Eagleton fiasco), partly by the media, partly by Nixon. I think he served as the perfect excuse for the Democratic Party to shut the door on the New Left and stay caged in corporate centrism. Sanders is trying to open that cage.
JB: Nice, positive image, Bob! I like it. Anything you'd like to add before we wrap this up?
BK: Change is inevitable. It's coming one way or another and it's under no one's control. I'll leave with a few words from Martin Luther King: The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. This is what gives me the courage and the will to keep on keeping on.
JB: It definitely helps to take the long view! Thanks for talking with me again. It's always great to catch up with you.
BK: Same here, Joan. We push the envelope every time we talk!
JB: Here's to a whole lot more envelope-pushing as we move forward!
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