JB: Many if not most whistleblowers pay a very heavy price for outing a story that others want hidden. They face retaliation, isolation and ostracism, firing, lengthy and exorbitant legal fees. How about you? Were you aware that you and your career could be in jeopardy?
MK: Of course. The first thing that usually happens to whistleblowers is that they get fired. I was aware of that, and I couldn't afford to lose my job in my late fifties. I think that's what keeps many people from coming forward.
But I retired in 2004, and started collecting my pension. That foiled company attempts to get at me through firing. And I figured the market for a man in his sixties was not very good in any case, so I didn't worry about finding another tech job, I basically left the tech world and dabbled in some other things, such as substitute teaching.
My biggest worry was: what would the government do? I realized I had one advantage that other whistleblowers don't have: I did NOT work for the government, and I did NOT do secret work using a security clearance, hence, they could not charge me with violating any security oaths. Of course, the government has been known to concoct charges out of thin air, and that was a worry, but I figured the political blowback against them for doing so might protect me. It was a gamble, but, in the end, the government did not come after me.
The only threat I faced was, initially, AT&T threatened to sue me if I did not shut up and return the documents. I refused, and in the end they never sued me, probably because they had already had enough bad publicity.
JB: Are people aware of your whistleblowing revelations? The press has done a less than stellar job on most of these stories.
MK: People who follow politics are aware, for sure, and know what I did, especially in the tech world. I've had neighbors on my block come by and thank me personally. On the whole, people are shocked by the extent of the surveillance, especially after Snowden's revelations came out.
On the other hand, the major media was a mixed bag when I was trying to get attention. Besides the LA Times killing the story, there was another incident that was indicative: in September 2006, 60 Minutes flew me to New York, where I was interviewed by Steve Kroft. That was just before the 2006 elections and would have made the story a big issue. But they never aired it, and I suspect foul play there. We had given them first crack at an exclusive TV interview, and they backed away without explanation. We recovered in 2007 when we got TV time on PBS/Frontline and ABC Nightline, but the incident was a symptom of the powerful forces at work trying to suppress it all.
a page from the AT&T engineering documents showing the splitter at work on a light signal
(Image by Mark Klein) Details DMCA
JB: Sadly, that's disappointing but not a shocker. I understand you wrote a book about your experiences. What kind of play has it gotten?
MK: After the judge dismissed the lawsuit against AT&T in 2009, at the behest of the "retroactive immunity" granted by Congress, I figured the issue would fade out for a while, and I didn't want the facts of the case to be lost or forgotten. So I gathered up all the material I had and put it in a book which I titled, Wiring Up the Big Brother Machine...And Fighting It. Not too surprisingly, I couldn't find a commercial publisher that was interested, so I self-published it. Since I couldn't afford the kind of publicity that a big publisher could muster, I relied on interviews and my online website to get the word around, so there are lots of links on the Web if you google "Mark Klein AT&T." My website has links to many interviews I have done. On the whole, sales have been modestly successful, considering the lack of professional promotion--it certainly hasn't been a New York Times bestseller, but sales continue to pick up a bit when the issue is in the headlines, such as in the last few days.
JB: I'm not surprised that publishers weren't lining up to publish your book. Not these days. And yes, I heard about you through the BradBlog when Brad Friedman interviewed you recently. Anything you'd like to add before we wrap this up?
MK: People often ask, what do we do now? I have no magical answer to that, but the first step in moving forward is to understand the problem. The past 15 years or so have revealed in many ways how the two parties are in bed with each other, despite their theatrical attacks on each other, and they are both funded by a small bunch of oligarchs interested only in their profits. Both parties fed us lies to take us into war in the Middle East, and there seems to be no end to it. Both parties have backed the NSA surveillance which is inextricably tied to the wars, torture, assassination programs, and all the rest. We have to find a way to break the political monopoly of the two parties with some kind of third political party geared to the needs of ordinary working people. Otherwise, the future is dark.
JB: Mark, thanks so much for talking with me and for coming forward with your first-hand corroboration of the NSA's ongoing unbridled domestic surveillance program. Good luck to you!
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