CHRIS HEDGES: Well, that gets into the cowardice of The New York Times, but that's another show. Yeah, it was about to come out in the book, and then the Times' Bill Keller ran it, because -- but they had held it. And so, yeah, I think we're in a very, very frightening moment.
AMY GOODMAN: And the fact that these -- the phones were -- the logs were taken of these different phones that more than a hundred AP reporters used, reporters and editors, shows who is calling them and who they're calling.
CHRIS HEDGES: Right, that's what they want.
AMY GOODMAN: So, talk about the significance of that.
CHRIS HEDGES: Right. Well, what they're clearly --
AMY GOODMAN: These aren't tape-recorded conversations.
CHRIS HEDGES: Right. And, I mean, having done that kind of work, I'm almost certain that whoever gave the AP this information didn't give it to them over the phone. But what they're doing is finding out -- matching all of the phone records to find out who had contact with someone in an AP bureau, whether that was in New York or Hartford or Washington or wherever else, and then they will probably use the Espionage Act to go after them, as well. That would -- that's certainly what the Obama administration has done since its inception.
AMY GOODMAN: Very briefly, can you talk about your visit with Julian Assange and then your visit with journalist Mumia Abu-Jamal?
CHRIS HEDGES: Well, I mean, I have tremendous respect for Julian Assange and what he's done. Again, even within the liberal intelligentsia, who should know better, they've turned their back on him. You know, whatever the sexual misconduct charges in Sweden were, it certainly wasn't rape, but there was something. But that has been used --
AMY GOODMAN: Well, they aren't charges, but he's wanted for questioning.
CHRIS HEDGES: Well, he's actually not been charged at all, so that's right, in a legal sense. But, you know, that kind of character assassination has left him very much alone. And I think the courage of a Manning, the courage of an Assange, the courage of a Mumia -- I mean, how that man remains unbroken. I was there with Cornel West and the theologian James Cone. I mean, it was a privilege for me. I mean, three of the probably greatest African-American intellectuals in the country, and certainly radicals. It's -- you know, those people who hold fast to the -- a kind of moral imperative, or hold fast to the capacity for dissent, whether that's Manning, who exhibited -- I was in the courtroom when he read his statement -- tremendous courage, poise, whether that's Assange, whether that's Mumia, let's look at where all those three people are, because for all of us who speak out, that's where they want us to be, as well. And that gets back to this AP story, because that is exactly the process that we are undergoing and where--if they win, where we're headed.
AMY GOODMAN: Chris Hedges, we want to thank you for being with us, senior fellow at The Nation Institute; foreign correspondent for The New York Times for 15 years, part of a team of reporters that was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in 2002 for the paper's coverage of global terrorism; among his books, Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt . And we'll link to his piece on Julian Assange called "The Death of Truth," which appears in The Nation magazine and at Truthdig, as well.
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